Hi Gunther,

Thanks for your reply on the other thread! Since that one is closed though, I could not reply anymore. Hence this new one...

1. You were right with your assumption on the lens profile, that for whatever reason that lens profile doesn't come through to LRT. It works well within Lightroom, just not into LRT and, as you suggested, other profiles generally work as well. I could work around it that way. No idea who to contact for that though?!

2. Unfortunately, the colour issue is not that easily explained. I know colour management, have two different calibrated screens, edit loads of photos and video, checked your links - but never had colour problems, also not with any of the players I use (even Preview plays everything usually correctly, no need for additional colour correction / calibration profiles anywhere).

FCPX plays the LRT render with the same colour shift towards green and the lack of contrast, exactly how @Graukater and @Tokyoshot describe it in your linked thread: https://forum.lrtimelapse.com/Thread-the...htroom-lrt

Just for a test, I've normally exported the JPGs full size and manually put them into FCPX, exported and...everything is as it should be, also within Preview and Quicktime. The problem happens using the LR to LRT render, no idea why, I've tried all settings already, always the same outcome.

Please check the attached 'first frame' screenshots from Quicktime, the first grab shows how it should be (exported from FCPX) and the second through LRT, which is brighter, lacking contrast and shifted towards green. That's not just a little different and, as mentioned before, I've tried all possible settings with legal, wide etc already, always the same outcome.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Peter

Hmm, the other post is not closed, but it's okay to open a new topic since the other was mainly about the vignetting. It's always good to have a separte topic for separate questions. However, I will link it here for reference: https://forum.lrtimelapse.com/Thread-len...-not-in-lr

So let's continue with your color management topic here.

First of all, I would like to ask you to install the latest beta and try with that, because there is a newer version of the renderer included: https://lrtimelapse.com/download/beta

If you can reproduce it with the latest beta also, please send me:
1) The first raw file of your sequence
2) the corresponding exported intermediary file (LRT_00001.jpg/tiff) from the LRTExport Lightroom plugin)
3) the rendered video where the first frame is the one you sent me
4) the LRTExport.log after you did the Lightroom export
5) the LRTimelapse.log after you rendered the video in LRTimelapse.
Both logs are in Documents/LRTimelapse.

Please zip everything and send it via Wetransfer to support(at)lrtimelapse.com

I don't have Final Cut but I will try and see if I can reproduce this in Davinci Resolve and also check the files.1

Hi Gunther,

Thanks for your reply! Using the latest Beta version, I still get the same results. Trying to either render the existing sequence or creating a new one (including redoing transitions, deflicker etc) still ends up with the same wrong outcome, in both ways. I'll send you an email via Wetransfer in a minute.

Thank you!
Peter

P.S. The other thread is closed for me at least, I can't click reply.

This post was last modified: 2024-03-23, 14:25 by Gunther.

Hi Peter, I've invested quite some time now analyzing this on mac and windows, with different video players and editors.

The result of my investigations is that Quicktime still has problems interpreting the gamma curve correctly and does display the videos with a wrong gamma (I suspect 2.0 instead of 2.4).

This doesn't happen with a decent video player (I recommend IINA: https://iina.io/ ) and it also doesn't happen with Davinci Resolve. Both correctly detect the gamma and display the video correctly. The same goes for players like MPC-HC on Windows: They all will show the correct gamma.

I'm attaching a screenshot where you will see the output of the color managed TIFF from the intermediary sequence that I used as basis and then the correct, color managed output of the IINA player and on the right side the wrong output of Quicktime.

I don't have Final Cut, but I suspect that it also doesn't detect the correct Gamma similar to Quicktime. However, usually in a Video Editor it's possible, to set the attributes for clips so that they get interpreted in a certain way. You might be able to "tag" those clips as Gamma 2.4 and have them displayed correctly, please try and let me know if you find a way to do so.

The good news is, I managed to implement some Metadata into the generated Video files that make Quicktime also detect the right gamma and it works with H2.65, DNxHR and ProRes files. The bad news is, it doesn't seem to be possible to tag H.264 files that way - or QT isn't evaluation that metadata on H.264 files.

This improvement will be included in 6.5.5 beta 3 which I will release in the next days.

I'd really recommend, that you install Davinci Resolve for further tests, this is the best video editor in terms of color management and is always good to use as reference.

Some important things to consider in Davinci Resolve:

• File Project Settings / Color Science must be set to Davinci YRGB Color Managed
  
• If you import a TIFF or JPG from an LRTimelapse Intermediary sequence in Rec.2020 color space, you need to right click on it in the media pool and manually set "Input Color Space" to "Rec.2020 (Scene)", for image files this won't be detected automatically, for the video files it's not necessary.
  
• Now you can stack up different clips in the timeline and compare their colors by enabling / disabling tracks.
  

You will see, that the colors match quite closely, and as far as possible, given the transformations and compressions that happen in the chain of processing.
Of course a compressed H.264 Rec.709 output will look a bit different than a clean TIFF file in Rec.2020. But the overall appearance is the same and you shouldn't such difference in Gamma as Quicktime produces them.

I hope I could help, please let me know your thoughts. Especially please try the IINA player in comparison. This will clearly show you that something is wrong in the way that Quicktime, the Mac Preview and possibly Final Cut interpret the gamma of those files.

Hi Gunther,

Thanks for your reply! I highly appreciate you taking the time to investigate and constantly improving LRT! That's awesome and I wish more developers would be as on it as you are!! I will also check out Davinci, thanks!

However, I wonder if we have miscommunication or I just don't get it. I still don't think the player is the problem but the >external< LRT render is as the internal seems to work!

If the RAWs within Lightroom + the exported JPGs look identical (as I've edited them), if the video from FCPX comes out very close to that, but only LRT's external render doesn't look the same, using the exact same source files from Lightroom, the same computer, screen and player...can it be the player?

All players I've tried (including IINA now) always have the exact same outcome: the rendered video from Final Cut has the closest colours and contrast and also plays correctly everywhere else (IINA, Preview, Quicktime, FCPX). It's just darker (probably the Gamma thing you mentioned?).

However, the videos rendered from LRT, using exactly the same Lightroom source JPGs, do not look like the RAW or source JPGs in any player (it's 'wrong' and colour shifted in all of them). Using the external LRT renderer, they shift towards green and lack contrast. Yes, the FCPX export is slightly darker than the original JPG files but the colours are much closer to what the initial Lightroom RAW and JPG source files look like. You can clearly see how the colours and contrast change in the stones on the left or on the fog...exactly what you found in your screenshot...however, it isn't the player, here it's the export through LRT.

Again, with the internal LRT render all seems to work, it happens with the external one only! So what is different between internal and external render with colours?

Should we see a difference exporting REC709 / BT2020? with these files? I've attached a BT2020 screenshot from IINA and it looks basically identical to first normal 709 export (03_LRT_colour-shift). Maybe that's the cause?

Of course, SpyderXElite and the profiles are running on top of everything. Do they somehow get baked into the LRT render but not into the others? Or the other way around? Again, with the internal one that doesn't seem to happen. Also, wouldn't that mean that every image I've ever exported from Lightroom would have that issue baked in (which I cannot imagine, what's the point of screen calibration then)?!

I've made screenshots from Lightroom's RAW file & the LR jpg export (both are basically identical, so only attached the JPG), the FCPX video from IINA (that used exactly those source JPGs), as well as a LRT export from IINA (also using also the same source JPGs), always the same first frame. All video screenshots are from IINA, however, it's the same result in Preview, Quicktime and everywhere else. The external LRT export is different.

Again, thanks for all your help, appreciate it! I'm also happy to PM you my number, if that makes it easier in any way.

Have a nice Sunday!
Peter

Hi Peter,
first of all, the internal export and render is not color managed. You get a warning about this in the render dialog. The internal export exports in sRGB and this is rendered as Rec.709. This is common sense and many non color calibrated systems will show those files fine. They are not meant for further Video processing in a color managed environment, but if the results are fine for you, why not use them.

LRTimelapse in general is aimed at the more ambitious photographer/videographer, that's why the default workflow (via Lightroom Export) is color managed and uses a wider color gamut (Rec.2020) for intermediary files. It involves the following steps:

1.) Export intermediary TIFFs or JPGs in Rec.2020 color space. Those already require Image Viewers that correctly interpret the profile and transform it to the Monitor's profile for viewing.

2.) LRTimelapse then renders those intermediary files either in Rec.2020 or, if you choose so, in the smaller Rec.709 color space.
The LRTimelapse renderer offers lots of additional settings for the professional video producer, like limited or full range, different color samplings and codecs etc. Of course color management on your system needs to be set up correctly and you need to know what you do, in order to take profit of those.

On the side of the Video Players and Video Editors also not all will automatically identify the color space, gamma curve etc. in the video files, this can be a mess, and unfortunately is something which might require attention when using files with enhanced color spaces.

In LRTimelapse I try to make it easier by offering the Presets - if you use the default Presets, which output Rec709 you should be fine apart from the limitations in the Quicktime player with the old H.264 that I explained in my last post.
But I'd recommend not using H.264 for production anyway. I'd use H.265 for normal use and otherwise ProRes or DNxHR.

Since you seem to be experiencing different behavior on your Mac than I on my Mac M1 Max Setup here with calibrated Monitors, something might be wrong in the color management chain on your system.

I cannot troubleshoot that for you, but I would at lease recommend, that you upgrade your MacOS to the latest. It never makes sense to work with outdated Software or OS. Also check your Monitor setup and calibration. This might also be a source for errors.

After that, go though the steps I explained in my last post again and you should get great results.

Hi Gunther,

'They are not meant for further Video processing in a color managed environment, but if the results are fine for you, why not use them.'

As you may remember, the lens profile doesn't get applied within LRT (works in Lightroom, Bridge, Camera RAW, Luminar AI, Neo etc). As the colours seem to work this way though, I would have used it as a quick solution for an Insta post. Without lens profile, back to the normal way…


‘LRTimelapse in general is aimed at the more ambitious photographer/videographer, that's why the default workflow (via Lightroom Export) is color managed and uses a wider color gamut (Rec.2020) for intermediary files. It involves the following steps: 1.) & 2.)’ 

I’ve used the exact workflow you mention, followed your advice here, the instruction videos, used your presets that generate JPGs from Lightroom that look exactly as they should - but simply do not get the right video outcome with LRT. Again, using IINA, Lightroom, Bridge, FCPX, Preview or whatever you use…your preset exported Lightroom JPGs look like they should, the rendered video doesn’t (it looks basically reverse to what you posted)! I’m not trying to be a pain, as said before, I love the program and how on it your are.

However, as a customer, I don’t like being belittled, especially, asking for help with your product when things don’t work. I’ve spent considerable time with LRT, trouble-shooting on top, offered help and ideas, have many years of experience with other professional photo, video and audio software, tried all the possible options I have with the private license (I don’t think I can do TIF, H265, ProRes?) - there's not much else in terms of settings that I can try right now anymore?! I have provided detailed information and even offered to call - things simply don’t look right here, that’s all I can say. And, looking at your linked threads, other people have/had the exact same problem: a lack of contrast and shift towards green in the video. I’m not alone on this and I doubt that we all are just ‘not ambitious enough’.


‘I cannot troubleshoot that for you, but I would at lease recommend, that you upgrade your MacOS to the latest. It never makes sense to work with outdated Software or OS. Also check your Monitor setup and calibration. This might also be a source for errors.’

No professional, company or facility I work with (media, photo, video or audio), will ever run the very latest Mac OS. Just the latest Sonoma problem regarding professional audio should be explanation enough. Additionally, it takes many developers ages to catch up, patch and get things to work. For example, in professional audio software, many developers (even the biggest companies) are often months, with the Silicon chips entire OS, or even years behind (I’m still waiting on a few to have their first release!). So, unfortunately, right now, I cannot update my OS.


Last but not least, I’ve checked calibration one more time and all is good there, no problems I can see at this point, also not in other programs that would give me similar results. However, I will check if I can get into Davinci, especially if that’s even better than FCPX, and export TIFs or JPGs from Lightroom and finish things from there in Resolve.

Cheers!

I spent a lot of time reevaluating the whole color management after your post and provided a lot of information and solutions.
I can only repeat myself: this is nothing that happens regularly to other users. In the last years, ther have been only 2 or 3 reports about color deviances whereas thousands of users work with LRT also on a professional basis.

This means, I'm basically trying to troubleshoot your personal setup which for me is only possible up to a certain level, especially since I cannot reproduce all of your experiences on my Mac M1 Max with calibrated HDR display and latest Sonoma.

The one difference that our systems have is the OS version. I asked you to upgrade to the latest, but you don't want to. So this we cannot rule out. Personally I'm in IT since more than 20 years and I can only tell you that working with outdated software causes more harm than good. But that's only my 2 cents.

The other thing is the Monitor and Color Management Setup. There are weird things going on in Apples Color Management, I don't know if you saw the following post that is also linked in the faq: https://forum.lrtimelapse.com/Thread-fin...1#pid47501 - there a very experience colorist described some weird behavior on mac in combination with P3 Monitors that correlates with your experiences. I don't know, if this issue has been resolved by now, but this is also something I have no influence on.

The 3rd difference is that you are using the Private license of LRT which only offers the quite limited consumer codec H.264. I will send you a trial key for the Pro, so that you can try H.265 and ProRes for a couple of days.

In any case you should easily be able to work around those issues with Davinci Resolve. I even gave you specific instructions on how to do so, which is also quite out of scope for LRTimelapse support. But of course, I'm trying to help you to find a solution for your problem.